In this second episode of a three-part series, pastors Derek and Cliff discuss Alistair Begg’s recent sermon in which he responded to his critics.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to With All Wisdom, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown and I’m here today with Cliff McManis. We are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California, and professors of theology at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we are on part two of our discussion about Alistair Begg and the recent advice that he gave about whether or not a Christian should attend a so-called gay wedding. And so we’re going to continue with that topic, and we encourage you, if you haven’t listened to the first episode, check that out. You can find that at withallwisdom.org, along with a lot of other resources including audio, video, and written resources all rooted in God’s Word and aimed at helping you grow in your walk with the Lord Jesus. So let’s get back to our topic, Cliff. We’re still on the issue of Alistair Begg’s advice, but we’re also now talking about how we would advise a Christian in a similar situation like this. And we do get questions like this. I’ve gotten questions like this, and I want to start this episode by bringing up an assumption that I’ve seen that I felt like perhaps was underlying Alistair Begg’s advice, but also one that I’ve seen as I’ve talked to some of our members and nonmembers about this question in the past, as there seems to be a concern with maintaining relationships in a situation like this.
So you want to do what you can to maintain the relationships because you have a good desire. You want to keep having opportunity to share the gospel with them. And you don’t want to ruin that opportunity by unnecessarily making a break in that relationship. And in a case like this, I’ve received the question like, well, Derek if I go or if I don’t go, rather, to the wedding, then basically they’ll never talk to me again and I’ll never have an opportunity to share the gospel with them again. And on the one hand, I can sympathize with the desire to want to maintain the relationship. I understand that, but on the other hand, I think there’s a grave misunderstanding. And this even goes back to what we talked about in the previous episode about Jesus’ hard, hard words about the family. I think there’s a misunderstanding in that assumption about maintaining the relationship—that that is somehow better for them. If you go by maintaining this relationship, this actually will create more open doors for the gospel, when in fact what it is doing is it actually makes it so that they can’t fully understand and see clearly what it costs to follow Jesus. So by you going to this particular so-called wedding, you are being confusing, actually, because Jesus requires us to leave our sin and to repent of our sin. And there’s a cost to following Jesus and our assumption is, if I don’t go, then my friend or my relative will cut off all relationship with me. And what we have to remember is if you do go, you’re going to make it harder for them to believe in Jesus because they’re going to be confused about what it really means to follow Jesus. And I’ve had to counter these assumptions with people so that they’ll see what’s best for their friend or relative or whoever it is. What’s best for them is for them to see clearly what it costs to follow Jesus, and for you to not condone it in any way. That clarity is what will help them come to Christ, not you muddying the waters by your attendance. Any thoughts on that, Cliff?
Cliff: Yeah, that’s another great point, because we’ve got to help people think things through based on unchanging, transcendent, clear biblical principles. Otherwise, the circ*mstances, as they arise, when they involve family members and the emotion of it—it’s going to cloud your thinking. So you’ve got to make these decisions and assessments based on clear biblical principles. And again, you and I, we just keep talking about the sufficiency of Scripture. The Bible has the answers regarding this very difficult scenario of a lovely, godly, mature Christian grandma wanting, number one, to honor Jesus Christ and the truth, and on the other hand, be the best witness she can to her unbelieving grandchild. And third, wanting to do it in a loving way, and also maintain that relationship for further opportunities of evangelism and witnessing in the future. And if she burns the bridges there, she can’t do that. So admittedly, that is a very complex and real scenario. And so a lot of Christians that we know will routinely make decisions based on the emotion of it or trying to avoid perceived fallout that will undermine or destroy their very precious relationship. I mean, there’s nothing more precious than a grandchild and their grandma. So this grandma was vulnerable already, and weak. But going back to your original question there, which was…?
Derek: Just the idea that you’re making it confusing. You’re confusing the person you actually want to eventually come to Christ.
Cliff: My immediate thought is a couple of things. I think they’re confusing. They want to be compassionate. I think they’re confusing what love truly is. The nature of love. Oh, this is the loving thing to do. That’s an act of love. And so that’s the big false dichotomy in this whole scenario here, when in reality, no—maybe the most loving thing to do from God’s point of view is to not go. And to be very clear with the grandchild why you can’t go. Because you’re preserving the truth. God loves this grandchild more than anybody. Jesus loves this grandchild more than anybody and wants them to come to repentance. And so in Second John, that little epistle, the whole theme of that thing is about love and truth. And how they’re paralleled. They go together; they’re intertwined. And that’s not often how the world thinks. Or even a lot of Christians don’t think that truth and love go together, and truth can be hard and difficult and narrow. It frequently is. And so Second John verse three says that grace, mercy and peace are made possible and flow from truth and love. That is amazing. Not just love—truth and love. So the truth is, God created marriage. Here’s what it is. He gave warnings. Honor it. Don’t tamper with it. Don’t pervert it. Don’t distort it. Don’t endorse wrong behaviors that undermine it. Leviticus 18. hom*osexuality is an abomination.
The New Testament says the same thing. That’s the truth about it. Because this marriage institution between woman and man is a living metaphor of Christ’s relationship to his eternal bride that cannot be tampered with. That’s the truth. And there are consequences for doing so. And the loving thing to do, the most loving thing of all, is to tell the unbeliever the truth about that. They need to hear the truth. The truth is what saves. And just going back to this—wanting to preserve this relationship you have maybe for further opportunities of evangelism down the road. I think that’s naïve, because you’re trying to maintain a relationship on a false premise or not even according to real, true principles. It’s false assumptions. And even when Jesus talked about evangelism, he told his disciples and warned them, I’m warning you, when you go out, you’re going to get rejected. Spit in your face, cursed out, arrested, and maybe even die for sharing the truth. And he didn’t say, well, try to build bridges or, you know, try to string it along—that relationship, if you can—and tone it down a little bit. He said no, as a matter of fact, you’re going to get wholesale rejection. At times, the door slammed in your face. And when you do, shake the dust off your sandals and go elsewhere, meaning terminate that relationship. And he didn’t say, except if it’s a family member, right? No.
He said, terminate the relationship. Trust God with the results. The seeds of the gospel were planted. It’s doing its work. That’s another thing. Just when you share the gospel one time with somebody, technically you don’t ever need to do it again. Because the Word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It never dies, and it never returns void. And the word of God that you shared with them pierced the inner recesses of their soul, and their very conscience, and it will be with them the rest of their life. And the Spirit of God according to John 16:8-9, is continually working with the word on the conscience and soul of that person that you talked to one time, so you can deliver the seed of the gospel, and then the relationship maybe on a human level is shattered temporally, but God continues to do his work. And so for the next ten years that they’re not talking to you, you are trusting God and saying, thank you, Holy Spirit, for working on my granddaughter. Even today, after seven years, convicting her of the truth of the gospel. And then maybe 13 years later, she calls you on the phone. Grandma, remember when you talked to me when I was in junior high and I got mad at you? I just want you to know I came to know Jesus. I’ve seen it happen.
Derek: Yeah. Same here. And that’s your point about making it very clear what marriage is and how we are to honor it and esteem it and all those things. Only when those things are absolutely clear for a person in this particular situation, then and only then are they able to repent, right? Because then and only then can they see the truth and the reality and their sin and how they are living contrary to it. So doing something to muddy the waters out of a desire to maintain a so-called evangelistic relationship is actually doing things wrong.
Cliff: That is such a great point that you just made, because you have to repent to be saved. But you can only repent of error and wrongdoing and sin. And if you don’t give them the fullness of the truth, they can’t repent. You’re actually inhibiting their ability to repent and be saved by watering it down and compromising in any way.
Derek: Yep. There was another famous popular pastor who some people were framing as having responded to Alistair Begg. I’m referring to John Piper. He did not respond to Alistair Begg. He had answered this question years ago. And so he was being brought up and placed alongside Alistair Begg’s comments. And I think John Piper’s comments were right on. They were biblical. They were true. And one of the things he said is that it’s hateful, actually, to attend something like this because you are giving the entirely wrong perspective and idea to this person by allowing them to think that they are able to continue in this kind of behavior.
Cliff: That’s a strong word. And I don’t disagree with him. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is say no. Parents who have young children know that. That’s basic.
Derek: Yeah. Well, Cliff, as it turns out, speaking of responses, Alistair Begg has responded to his critics, and he responded this Sunday in a sermon. And so I wanted to talk a little about that. I know you had some thoughts on that, just to tee it up a little bit here. He responded in a sermon, and the sermon was on the prodigal son. And he quotes, all the way from the lost coin, these parables that Jesus is telling and it culminates with the prodigal son. And then he launches into his sermon. And really the thrust of the sermon is that we need to be very careful about having a pharisaical attitude when we’ve been forgiven of so much. When someone really understands the forgiveness of God and the grace of God, they will be compassionate towards other sinners. They will not be judgmental towards other sinners. And we as Christians need to be very guarded against a spirit of pharisaism and developing an attitude that lacks compassion towards other sinners. And that’s the frame in which he then addressed or gave his response to these people who have who have suggested that he gave bad advice.
And I thought that was interesting. In fact, you’ve already alluded to it in the previous episode, but if you’re reading it and listening carefully, what he’s doing is he’s actually saying that the negative response that he’s receiving is pharisaical. If I’m understanding him correctly, this idea that we think that his advice was bad and that we don’t think a person should attend a so-called gay wedding is pharisaical. It’s not loving; it’s not showing compassion and grace. And I found that to be just an interesting way to frame his response. He wasn’t saying that explicitly, but it comes across pretty clearly as you listen to his response. But, Cliff, what are some of your thoughts on Alister Begg’s response in the midst of hearing a lot of responses already that had been given. From what I understand, he hasn’t heard probably a lot of them, or a lot of the negative ones. But what are your thoughts about how he responded?
Cliff: Yeah. Let me just run through a quick chronology, especially for those who just aren’t up to speed on this whole scenario. That would be helpful. It was probably about ten days ago where I heard about this for the first time, where I got a text message saying that now, apparently, Alistair Begg has given counsel to another Christian that it’s okay to go to gay weddings. That was the text message I got. This was like ten days ago. I’m like, what? That doesn’t sound like Alistair. That sounds weird. So this is the end of January 2024, and I’m knowing that okay, wait, that’s the same Alistair Begg that I heard preach in chapel at the Master’s College in 1987, almost 40 years ago when I was a student there, when he preached three days there on First Timothy. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was like, whoa, this guy’s got a cool accent.
Derek: I was going to say, I bet it was the accent.
Cliff: And I was a senior in college at the Master’s College. He was an invited guest there in 1987. The same Alistair Begg that I’ve met and talked to personally many times over the last 30 plus years. I was at a conference that he was the main speaker at just a couple of years ago. And I got to talk to him there as well. And also knowing that he’s going to be a featured speaker at the Shepherd’s Conference the first week of March, coming up in a month, that you and I will be attending. So this is all just flooding through my mind. When I heard that I was like, oh, that doesn’t sound right. But anyway, so then the next opportunity I had as I got on the internet and, like you said, the internet had blown up and this has created a firestorm. I guess, apparently, he did say something. And then it turns out the history of this whole scenario—is that really what happened? The original incident was in September of 2023. So this was several months ago when he gave this counsel. And then apparently there’s just been silence from September to January, where he re-explained the whole thing. So I was wondering, why was there silence about this for three months? But anyway, so he brings it up at the end of January, which you quoted earlier. We heard his own words where he’s supposedly given this counsel to a grandma. It creates an uproar all over the Christian world, at least the conservative evangelical world, particularly here in America.
And then his one of the radio programs that hosts his daily show caught wind of it. And then they asked him to clarify, is this what you meant? Was this a slip up? Did you really counsel this grandma? It’s okay for Christians to go to transgender or gay weddings? And apparently he doubled down and said, yeah, that’s what I meant. So then they dropped him from the radio program. So then after that, he talked to his own local church, where he’s been a pastor for almost 40 years, there in Ohio, on January 28th. And he said that his colleagues, whoever that is, had suggested that he address this to the church. He didn’t say the elders, so I don’t know who that is. So he did Sunday night in a sermon and didn’t just double down and reaffirm that he agrees with his original counsel, but he tripled down and said, yeah, I stand by what I said. Despite all that he’s heard in the last ten days on the internet, including high profile Christians and even some of his friends who have personally contacted him and said, this is wrong. You need to repent and you need to recant and humble yourself. And even having that information, he said, no, I’m not going to repent. I’m not going to recant. And then he said, I don’t need to.
Derek: Yeah, that’s right. I don’t need to repent.
Cliff: Like, wow. And then he also said in that, and I heard the sermon itself, where he’s giving his defense for it. For the second time, publicly, from what I understand, and some of his main reasons are, even though he’s been a pastor for 40 years in Ohio with Americans, he said, I’m not a byproduct of American Christianity. I’m not a byproduct of “American fundamentalism” or American evangelicalism. I am a British Christian. And then he quoted some of his mentors that he supposedly is in line with, including Eric Alexander and Sinclair Ferguson and John Stott and Martin Lloyd-Jones. And I like those guys. And I’m thinking, wait, do all those guys endorse telling Christians to go to gay weddings? Is that what you’re saying? That’s weird, because I don’t think they would. But that’s what he said. So reason number one. You don’t understand me. That’s where I come from. And it was a backhanded comment that if you disagree with me, you’re a fundamentalist, which is code for not good. You’re a narrow minded, unloving Pharisee. He even used the word fundamentalist and also Pharisee. So he’s labeling anybody that disagrees with him as a Pharisee and fundamentalist. So I’m thinking, oh boy, I was disappointed when I first heard that he said this. I’m doubly disappointed now.
And now I’m really discouraged and distressed that he’s labeling others who disagree with him as a fundamentalist and a Pharisee and that we don’t really understand the finer nuances of this issue because we’re Americans and not British Christians. And the most alarming thing of all is the book of Proverbs, and just all over Scripture, that just reminds us, as sinners, we all have blind spots. We all have weak spots. We don’t know anything. And the book of Proverbs says we need to welcome criticism and rebuke. If we don’t, we’re considered a fool. That’s very dangerous. And that’s kind of what it’s starting to look like. He is resisting all this accountability at such a high and public level. And every person that I’ve heard on all the podcasts, every single one, has been legitimate. Sincere. Pastoral. Clearly biblical. Every one of the people haven’t been critics of Alistair Begg. They’re people who respect his ministry and love him. And they’re saying, come on, brother. Can’t you see this? You’ve got a blind spot. And he’s hearing this, and nevertheless, he’s still resisting it all. And as a matter of fact, saying I’m not going to repent because I don’t need to. And I’m just like, wow, now you’ve really hardened yourself. And that’s just a dangerous place to be in.
Derek: Yeah, it is. And I agree with you. That’s what has been really concerning about his response is the framing of it, making it seem as though those who are critiquing him are fundamentalist Pharisees. And yet he is resisting. That’s deeply concerning. And the almost pitting of compassion against the truth. And I think that’s very confusing, that he’s the compassionate one in this scenario. And those of us who would disagree with him were not being compassionate. We don’t care about the hom*osexual. We don’t care about the evangelistic relationships that we might have with these people. We don’t care about how they’re treated. And we think they should just be treated badly and cast to the side of society. And this is almost a straw man. So I think just the very way he’s framing it is deeply concerning. In fact, in the response that he gave towards the end, he read from some online responses that had come to him, and he read one at length that basically commended his view as being biblical and balanced. And, here’s a guy who’s very thankful for it. And I just thought that’s concerning because you have very high caliber gentlemen who have given you strong theological responses. And this is not a gray area. We’ve mentioned this already. This is not an area where I think we agree to disagree. And we have a difference of opinion here. Right? We would say that is an error. And he needs to repent.
Cliff: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Derek, you mentioned Luke 15. So Alistair Begg is publicly giving his defense to bolster that he made the right decision regarding this horrible counsel. Reason number one is I’m a British Christian, not an American one like you guys. And the second one was the biblical one was, as you said, from Luke 15. And a couple other passages that he referenced where he references and alludes to that Jesus ate with sinners. And he just kind of leaves it at that. And what he doesn’t say was, yeah, Jesus ate with sinners, but he always did it on Jesus’ terms. And Jesus said no to sin. It doesn’t say he was invited to orgies and went and celebrated with them. Because he went and had a meal or went into the home of tax collectors and sinners. But he always did it on his terms, which was holiness. And even when he would meet with an adulterer or adulteress and saw that there was true repentance, he would say, you’re forgiven. And then he would send them off and say, go and sin no more. So he dealt specifically with their sin. The woman at the well. He cut to the chase and rebuked her for being an adulteress and exposed her adulterous lifestyle. You need to repent from that sin. So Jesus did eat with sinners. But he always did it on his terms, and he always preserved holiness and called sinners to repentance. That’s what Luke says. Jesus himself said, the Son of Man came into the world to save sinners, but he also called them to repentance. That’s what he did. And he didn’t just eat with sinners. He also ate with Pharisees several times in the book of Luke. So Jesus would eat with anybody. And he never compromised his agenda or the truth, no matter who he met with.
Derek: Yeah. So this framing it in a way, that compassion would [imply] going to the wedding, I think is an unfortunate way of framing it. And I do hope that we do see some repentance on Alister Begg’s part. Just to resurface what I had said earlier, when you and I were discussing doing this podcast, we both agreed. In fact, you really pressed it pretty strongly that this is not a mere difference of opinion. And I think that’s where we want our friend Alistair Begg to recognize what’s actually at play here, that this is actually a very serious foible and one that does need to be repented of. This is not me and you having a certain opinion about weddings and how to conduct the Christian life, where we can go to Romans 14 and say, you know what? You have an opinion, I have an opinion, I accept you, you accept me. We’re not going to squabble over it. Let’s move on and have peace. That’s not this issue. We’ve already addressed it in the first episode, that this issue has to do with the very nature of marriage, the affirming of a sinful lifestyle, the affirming of a lie. Really, by going to a so-called gay wedding, you’re actually affirming a lie, something that doesn’t exist and something that needs to be understood within the context of Jesus’ hard words about family and about relationships, and how to value him over even those close relationships. So this is not an opinion.
Cliff: The matter at hand is a high level, doctrinal, black and white issue number one, and also the context and venue in which he’s declared it, which is to the world, elevates it even more to the level of Galatians 2, where Paul rebuked Peter to the face publicly because of the nature of the issue and also because it was proclaimed, and his actions were being done, in a public venue, affecting a lot of people, undermining the gospel. And that’s the same thing here. The high-level stakes are at hand, and it needs to be publicly rebuked. Or like 1 Corinthians 5, where there was a public known relationship of a man who was incestuously trying to be related to his mother-in-law. So that would be an unbiblical marriage. A man having incest with his mother-in-law. And Paul didn’t tolerate it, saying out of love and compassion—he rebuked it. He called the sinners to repentance. He told the Corinthians, boy, you guys are tolerating this gross sexual immorality that undermines biblical marriage. You’re tolerating it. Paul rebuked them for it. He got mad at them for doing that. He said, here’s the biblical response. Call them to repentance. We don’t tolerate this kind of gross immorality that undermines marriage. And as a matter of fact, if they don’t repent, he needs to be isolated from the Christian community so that he might be delivered over to Satan himself, that God can chasten him and woo him to repentance. So isolation is one of God’s tools to woo a sinner to repentance. And then in 2 Corinthians, years later, it could very well be that that man was broken, repented, and was renewed and welcomed back into the church. So God’s method worked, even though it seemed harsh in the moment.
Derek: Yeah. One more thing before we close out this episode and move on to our last one. In his response, Cliff, I don’t know if you recall this, but he said at least once, if not a couple of times, that if the situation was different, he may have given completely different advice. Can you make sense of that at all? Do you remember those comments?
Cliff: Yeah, I do. I was alarmed when I heard it. I was like, what? Because this situation is fixed. Gay marriage, gay wedding, and what it means. Right? And there are transcendent, timeless, unchanging biblical principles from Almighty God that directly address this and inform this. And they never change. So your advice on this should never change. It sounds like relative ethics or catering to the culture or the emotion or the scenario or the personal relationships. So just not good—a pastor can’t do that.
Derek: Yeah, I agree that it was an alarming statement because I was just trying to think, in what situation would you give different advice? Because this is dealing with fixed principles. And it was almost as though he was trying to find a way out without saying I repent or without really admitting what he had done wrong. This is a kind of way out. And so I was actually discouraged by that. I found it to be almost a little kind of double talk or two-faced. And again, sadly, I don’t say these things with pleasure, but Christians do need to be discerning, even with popular pastors. You know, we’re talking about pastors not being above critique. We’re not above critique, and we have blind spots, and we can’t fall in a situation where we would have other trusted men around us telling us, hey, you were wrong, and resisting that and trying to find ways around it without admitting that we were wrong. And so it is alarming. We don’t take pleasure in this, but we do need to help our people be aware and to be discerning, and to be like the Bereans in Acts chapter 17, to listen carefully and to not be carried away by a person’s popularity, by the number of books that they’ve written, or even their accent, quite honestly. Don’t be carried away and continue to be discerning. So that’s what we hope this has helped you to do. And these past couple of podcasts, we are going to come in with a third episode on this topic, and we’re going to talk about lessons for pastors, lessons that we’ve learned through this, things that we need to take to heart as pastors and learn from in this scenario. And we’re going to do that when we come back. Check out WithAllWisdom.org, where you’ll find all of our podcasts, and all of our written resources. And now we also have videos you can check out. And until next time, keep seeking the Lord and His Word.
